Posts by Cold Steel

Qcmbr: How do you react...when we show you Mormon lies, logic errors, immorality and proof of the fraudulent nature of the Book of Mormon?

Cofty: He sticks his fingers in his ears, sings lalalalala, and types lots of text that includes the oxymoron "mormon scholars..."

That’s about it, only I sing “Wake Up, Little Suzie” really loud.

AndDon’tCallMeShirley: ....you criticize Jehovah's Witnesses for their beliefs...you are a Mormon. You seem to not realize you believe in fictions just as absurd and unprovable as the Jehovah’s Witnesses—yet you stand here in judgment of them. On what basis?

So...am I the only critic here? Actually, it seems most of the threads on this board criticize the Jehovah’s Witnesses. And the atheists here are the most critical of everyone.

But though my beliefs differ from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, my primary criticisms deal with their policies. But many of my threads are on scriptural topics, like the state of the dead, prophecy, the fall of man, the atonement, the Second Coming and everyone’s favorite, the battle of Armageddon. So it gets down to the “Two Es” — exegeses and eschatology. To the atheists, this is all nitpicking since, to them, one religious doctrine is as ridiculous as another.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses believe, as I understand it, that when one dies, he or she ceases to exist, as if they never existed. They also teach that the wicked will be resurrected, judged, then obliterated, whilst the righteous are resurrected as either spirits or as immortal humans, like Adam and Eve.

At least atheists and others freely admit that certain matters do not have an answer, but rather than believe in fairy tales, they rely on evidence to formulate opinions, and reserve themselves until evidence proves their position wrong. The gullibly religious seem to latch onto any nonsense that makes them feel good—no evidence required—while condemning other gullibly religious people who believe in a different color of unprovable, but equally laughable, set of absurdities.

Your self-assured arrogance is astounding.

My greatest problem with atheists is their stunning hypocrisy and unyielding inability to see what they accuse others of in themselves. My God, you should see yourself from my side of the computer screen! Talk about arrogance! You speak as though science has settled every problem and has slammed the door shut once and for all without question on every religion and religious experience in the history of mankind—all the while conveniently overlooking its own flawed, narrow and sordid past with an astonishing presumptuousness that has existed on the parts of pseudo-intellectuals going all the way back to the ancient Greek philosophers and before. And you have the audacity to call me arrogant?

I’ve never claimed that religion has all the answers, but it’s a belief system in many ways just as science is. For generations scientists and humanists of all stripes have had their own little cliques in which those outside of their belief systems were ridiculed and, if possible, excluded from their ranks. Look at those who were derided for their belief in continental drift (which anyone with a global map could figure out) and their questioning of the scientifically cherished Siberian Land Bridge theory, which excluded every piece of evidence that backed up the claims of the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica. So please don’t tell me how impartial, dispassionate and fair science is and how narrow minded and bigoted religion is. You may say you don’t believe in God nor revealed religion, but to say you know there’s no validity to it is, itself, the basest of belief systems.

RottenRiley: Jehovah's Witnesses don't know the Christ of the Bibles are do they believe in the Jesus Christ and Good News taught by the Apostles. Their claim is "If I die, I am a Christian because I believed in Jesus Christ" but they don't believe in Jesus Christ do they?

They say they do, but I don’t believe people are saved or damned on just what they believe. John writes:

We see here not just an emphasis on believing in Christ, but in living his commandments. The one aspect of religion that bothers me the most is the exclusivity of sects and religions that damn, or condemn, everyone but themselves. If Christianity is to reflect the love of God and the brotherhood of men, then all the condemnation to hell or destruction has to give way to acknowledging God as loving, just and merciful. Jehovah will destroy everyone but his witnesses, we’re told, or, if we believe the Seventh Day Adventists, anyone who does not embrace seventh-day worship. In my view, if religions would try to be more inclusive, not of the wicked, but of those who truly love and revere both the Father and the Son, they would be on the right track.

Based on my reading of near death experiences, and the writings of the New Testament and other writings of its time, I couldn’t help but wonder what the reaction of Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists (or atheists) would be to be cut off in this life, only to find themselves continuing in existence in real time?

When you were an active JW, or if you’re presently a believing JW, what would be your reaction to discovering, suddenly, that the spirit lives on? And what would happen if a Jehovah’s Witness were to have a near death experience, recover and tell it to friends or the elders in their congregations? Have such experiences ever been written about in WTBTS publications?

My dad told us before he died that he had seen and spoken to his mother (and he wasn’t an overly religious type, playing his religion very close to the vest). And my maternal grandfather also said, prior to his death, that he had seen and spoken to friends and family, including his mother and father). I don’t know just what his religious views were exactly when he passed, but he had been attending a Kingdom Hall every Wednesday evening, dressing up for it and taking his Bible. Just moments before he died, he raised up on his left elbow and pointed with his right finger towards the edge of his bed, as if whoever he was looking at was/were standing above the floor. He was very emphatic, but wasn’t able to say anything. But I take such things seriously.

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29

What If the Soul Sleeping Doctrine is False?

by Cold Steel in

when god breathed life into adam, adam became a living soul.

moments before he had been only a concept...an idea; a lump of clay if youre a literalist.

now he was a complex living and breathing being.

Cold Steel

Christopher Hitchens said: "That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."

At one time, no one believed in germs; and when they couldn't deny it, they argued they were far too small to harm the human body. People were booted out of the medical profession for requiring their hospital staff to wash their hands! Much of astrophysics today is founded on a belief in dark matter, though evidence that it exists is sadly lacking. The same thing used to be true of black holes. Even though they were theoretically possible, Stephen Hawking said years ago, he doubted whether any would be found. Before the ink was dry, however, astronomers had begun to find them; not that they actually saw them, but they were able to prove they existed and determine where they were. Now we know they're all over the place.

To say there is no evidence of God, or a Creator, is a pretty huge leap. And the more we learn, the more we realize we don't know. The complexity of genetic codes, order and beauty of the universe, the witnesses throughout time, many of the prophets have stated that all things denote there is a God. I've found that many of the near death experiences I've read to be very compelling, regardless of their religious and cultural backgrounds. But as many have pointed out, if atheists are correct, we'll never know it; however, if religionists are right, we all know there's a God after about two minutes.

Jehovah's Witnesses are sure that when they die, they will find themselves coming to in the future. They're not exactly sure what they'll see or experience, but I suspect most will believe it will be right at the onset of the battle of Armageddon. But they'll be conscious and aware of their own existence and, good or evil, will have a full recollection of their memories. The scriptures say that all men will be resurrected, male and female. The JWs add to that doctrine that the evil ones will be resurrected, judged and destroyed, all *POOF*.

29

What If the Soul Sleeping Doctrine is False?

by Cold Steel in

when god breathed life into adam, adam became a living soul.

moments before he had been only a concept...an idea; a lump of clay if youre a literalist.

now he was a complex living and breathing being.

Cold Steel

When God breathed life into Adam, Adam became a living soul. Moments before he had been only a concept...an idea; a lump of clay if you’re a literalist. Now he was a complex living and breathing being. A son of God. At least that’s how the Jehovah’s Witnesses see it.

In school, one of my courses was Christian eschatology in light of newly discovered papyri. We covered the whole soul sleeping doctrine as taught by William Miller, Ellen G. White and Charles T. Russell. Far from being an ancient Greek heresy, as the Adventists claim, there was a solid belief amongst ancient Hebrew and Christian leaders that man not only had an immortal soul, but many early Jewish and Christian writers believed that man’s immortality goes in both directions, into the present and future, but also into the past. One scholar writes:

Christ's premortal existence, however different Christians interpret this concept, is well attested in the New Testament.8 The concept of individual premortal existence of humans is not clearly attested in texts in the biblical tradition until the last few centuries BC on into the early Christian centuries. Examples found in some early Jewish and Christian documents include:

As a child I was naturally gifted, and a good soul fell to my lot; or rather, being good, I entered an undefiled body. (Wisdom of Solomon 8:19–20)9

But he [God] did design and devise me [Moses], who (was) prepared from the beginning of the world, to be the mediator of his covenant. (Testament of Moses 1:14)10

Enoch was instructed that "all the souls are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth." (2 Enoch 23:5; see further 1 Enoch 48:2–3)11

Such attestations of this concept in early Jewish and Christian texts are regularly cited as dependent on Greek influence, especially Platonic thought. For example, "the Platonic view of the soul as pre-existent seems to be reflected here [in Wisdom of Solomon 8:19–20], but unlike Plato's view, there is union with an undefiled body."12

8. See ... Douglas McCready, He Came Down from Heaven: The Preexistence of Christ and the Christian Faith (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity, 2005).

9. NRSV Apocrypha, as found in The New Oxford Annotated Bible with Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical Books, ed. Bruce M. Metzger and Roland E. Murphy (New York: Oxford, 1994), AP 68.

10. As found in James H. Charlesworth, ed., The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha (New York: Doubleday, 1983, 1985), 1:927; hereafter abbreviated OTP.

11. As found in OTP, 1:140.

12. Note on Wisdom of Solomon 8:19–20, in New Annotated Oxford Bible, AP 68, emphasis in the original.

If other Christians are correct in their scriptural exegeses, and if you’re a Jehovah’s Witness, what would your reaction be to die and suddenly find that you were still alive and conscious? What do you think most Jehovah’s Witnesses would do? In the stories I’ve read, a person dies, then finds themselves in Paradise (if righteous), feeling intense peace and well being. They also frequently see their own bodies, either on the floor or in a bed or stretcher.

So if this happened, how do you think most Jehovah’s Witnesses would react, seeing that this, one of their premier doctrines, was false? How would you react? Would most Jehovah’s Witnesses despair or would they continue to maintain their beliefs in the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society?

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35

We Pray For The Governing Body...

by jw07 in

at the meetings i've noticed over the past 2 years or so brothers asking for 'special blessings' for the governing body.

it was everyonce in a while at first.

now it is almost at every single meeting!

Cold Steel

The egos began to bloat when the comparisons to the ancient Quorum of the Twelve Apostles began. The Governing Body wasn't always an administrative body whose edicts were the law. Many apparently continue in the homey, easy style you'd expect from a neighbor or friend.

As people like this visit congregations, it doesn't help when people begin fawning over them and treating them with almost sickening deference. Many of the elders, from what I've heard, have taken their cue from the GB. If the GB doesn't interfere with them, and sustains them behind the scene, both prosper. The GB gets the power and the elders are free to tighten the grip on whomever they see fit. As it's been reported here, they interfere with the way you raise your families, how you conduct your business, what you do after high school, the types of places you visit in the neighborhood, such as home sales -- they can even determine what you can and cannot read and what you can and cannot display in your homes.

To my mind, the greatest problem among those affiliated with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is that it doesn't consider itself a church. Why? If one reads the New Testament, it is full of references to the Church. There are local churches that, together, make up the entire Church; and the apostles and other writers make it exceedingly clear that there is a church, and that Jesus Christ is the head of the Church. If Jesus is the archangel Michael, then Michael is the head of the church (which I don't buy for a moment). We also know the church had officers in it, amongst whom were apostles, bishops, teachers, deacons, priests, evangelists, seventy and elders. If we say that modern Governing Body members=Apostles, and Overseers=Bishops, and Elders=Elders, then what of the Priests, Deacons and Seventy? And if the WBTS isn't a church; if it isn't the Church, then where is the Church? And why has God chosen an organization headed by Jehovah and not Jesus Christ?

To see the sanctity and the relationship that existed between Christ and the Church, take a careful look at Ephesians 5. Then, if you can, explain how the Jehovah's Witnesses correlate to it as an organization. Is it the church, or is it a placeholder until the Church is restored to the earth?

Christ is the head of the Church, and the Church is subject to Christ. Christ loved the Church and gave himself for it that he might sanctify and cleanse it so that he might present it to himself "a glorious Church" without spot or blemish. How is what the Governing Body is doing will result in that type of Church, wherever it is?

Clearly the WTBTS considers its members to be witnesses of Yahweh, not the Church of Jesus Christ. And that's a huge problem. Where do they get their ministerial authority? Who told them to organize and how to organize? Jesus told his apostles, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit; and that your fruit should remain; that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you." (John 15:16) Does this fit the description of the mission given to the Governing Body? No, because the GB sees itself as the "faithful and wise servant" of Matthew 24 -- not bringing forth fruit, but rather, those " whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season." Just how the Lord made the GB the "ruler over his household" has never, to my knowledge, been explained. How do they know the Lord did this, and who is the Lord? Christ, or the Father?

The GB was more theologically viable as a consulting body than an administrative body. I think many active Jehovah's Witnesses know this; but for them it's a leap of faith...quite a leap at that!

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7

TRUE PROPHETS IDENTIFIED!!!

by DATA-DOG in

the prophets of science fiction.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/prophets_of_science_fiction .

i just discovered this series on netflix.

it's pretty cool, fyi.. .

Cold Steel

Isaac Asimov, my favorite sci-fi writer, had a great sense of humor. I still remember this gem from years ago:

The Prime of Life

It was, in truth, an eager youth
Who halted me one day.
He gazed in bliss at me, and this
Is what he had to say:

“Why, mazel tov, it’s Asimov,
A blessing on your head!
For many a year, I’ve lived in fear
That you were long since dead.
Or if alive, one fifty-five
Cold years had passed you by,
And left you weak, with poor physique,
Thin hair and rheumy eye.
For sure enough, I’ve read your stuff
Since I was but a lad
And couldn’t spell or hardly tell
The good yarns from the bad.
My Father, too, was reading you
Before he met my Ma.
For you he yearned, once he had learned
About you from his Pa.
Since time began, you wondrous man,
My ancestors did love
That SF dean and writing machine
The aged Asimov.”

I’d had my fill. I said, “Be still!
I’ve kept my old-time spark.
My step is light, my eye is bright,
My hair is thick and dark.”

His smile, in brief, spelled disbelief,
So this is what I did;
I scowled, you know, and with one blow,
I killed that rotten kid.

6

Individual Governing Body Members

by lambsbottom in

after watching morris' rant, was thinking about how weak these religious men are.

think about it: they are scared to put any of their hardcore beliefs (e.g.

higher education is bad and dangerous, clothing standards, ect.

Cold Steel

They're either deluded, deceived or are themselves deceitful, and I don't know whether Franz ever addessed what GB members see when they look in the mirror.

Anciently, God spoke to his apostles and prophets through theophanies and angelic visitations. I would love to see the looks on peoples' faces attending a major conference during which a GB member got up and said he had been visited by an angel like John did on Patmos. Or what if one of them had a dream or vision? I wonder how many people who had left the Society would change their minds and put in for reinstatement if there was such an announcement?

Imagine if one day Gerrit Lösch got up to speak at a major convention. "My friends and brethren, for many years we have known we live in precarious times. We see the combined efforts of Satan the Devil and his angels of demons have fought Jehovah and his earthly organization and that they have increased their stride in bringing us closer to Armageddon. As the Governing Body of the Watchtower Society, we have often found that some of our decisions and statements have angered some. Such it was with the first century of Jehovah's Christians.

Anciently, the apostles, the Governing Body of its time, struggled with their own problems, and when certain issues became overwhelming, God answered their prayers through angelic ministrations. The apostles weren't perfect, my friends, and neither are we. Like anyone else we make mistakes. Well, I'm here today to tell you that last Wednesday, before our weekly meeting, I was preparing some notes regarding our continuing expectation for the coming of Armageddon. As I was checking my points, I suddenly noticed a man standing by my side. He looked as real as you or I do right now, but he was dressed in a white robe, with hair of the most lusterous white. He stood beside me just a little above the ground. He had a sparkle in his eye and I instantly recognized him as Brother Charles Taze Russell. He called me by name and put his hand upon my shoulder, and when he did so, I was completely surrounded and enveloped by understanding. I saw the beast of whom John wrote, and that he came upon this people to destroy them. Some of the wicked fell by the sword of the beast, but the more part of the people stood on their feet and resisted the dragon. Fire fell from the sky with stones that weren't hail, but rather, from the void of the heavens. It was as if one day the people of the earth were conducting their business as ususal and then, suddenly, chaos reigned! And in the midst of this chaos, I saw Jehovah's people rise into the air, and no stone could impede them, nor could the fire hurt them. And yet there were many who, for varying reasons, had left our ranks and were destroyed where they stood, their eyes and tongues being burned within them as by a strong acid. Still there were others who were spared for reasons I was not given to understand.

"When the vision departed, I found myself in my room with Elder Russell, who began to slowly ascend through the ceiling. As he did so, he told me he would visit me again; that the day of Armageddon was nigh, and that the date thereof was only known by Jehovah and that it would come not one day sooner or one day later. When I could no longer see him, I was left weak and powerless. Yet I remembered everything he had related. Subsequently, I had visitations from three of the Lord's ancient followers, Peter, Paul and Mary. I see that my time is up, so I will go into more detail later. Farewell."

If something like that happened, it might invigorate the organization.

The First Resurrection Now Under Way?

Can we say more precisely when the first resurrection begins? An interesting clue is found at Revelation 7:9-15, where the apostle John describes his vision of “a great crowd, which no man was able to number.” The identity of that great crowd is revealed to John by one of the 24 elders, and these elders represent the 144,000 joint heirs with Christ in their heavenly glory.* (Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 4:4)

John himself had a heavenly hope; but since he was still a man on earth when the elder spoke to him, in the vision John must represent anointed ones on earth who have not yet received their heavenly reward. What, then, can we deduce from the fact that one of the 24 elders identifies the great crowd to John? It seems that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today.

Why is that important? Because the correct identity of the great crowd was revealed to God’s anointed servants on earth in 1935. If one of the 24 elders was used to convey that important truth, he would have had to be resurrected to heaven by 1935 at the latest. That would indicate that the first resurrection began sometime between 1914 and 1935. Can we be more precise?* For information on how we know that the 24 elders represent anointed Christians in their heavenly position, see Revelation—Its Grand Climax At Hand! page 77, published by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The real reason why this is important, is nothing to do with 1935 — it has to do with the demotion of the anointed to a group with “no special insight” and the promotion (or reaffirmation) of the Governing Body to having inside info from the dead!

Communication with the dead has always been a part of the Watchtower religion:

Clayton Woodworth claimed that Pastor Russell was still directing the Watchtower Society from beyond the grave:

“Pastor Russell was a man of unusual modesty. Great men usually are modest. The examination of the contents of this book will disclose the fact ... that the earthly creature made prominent therein above all others is the messenger of the Laodicean Church — ‘that wise and faithful servant of the Lord’ — CHARLES TAZE RUSSELL.

“...[T]hough Pastor Russell has passed beyond the veil, he is still managing every feature of the Harvest work. ‘The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society is the greatest corporation in the world, because from the time of its organization until now the Lord has used it as His channel through which to make known the Glad Tiding.’” (Finished Mystery, 1917, pp. 5, 144). [Source]

One reader asked, "Why is it such a stretch to believe that Jehovah is using angels nowadays? Or that the head of the Christian congregation, Jesus, might be using resurrected holy ones?" Darn good question.

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22

Get out of her My People.. Jeremiah 51:45 / Revelation 18:4

by objectivetruth in

for any christians, i'd like to get your opinion.. i believe that all organized religions are a part of babylon the great.

this includes the jw organization, in my opinion.. what do you feel is required to "get out of her"?would disasociation / disfellowshipment be appropriate?if one chose not to dissasociate himself, would it be wrong to still attend meetings with the hope of turning some to the bible?when jesus speaks of the scribes & pharisees do you feel that these could be compared to the elders or the gb?if the scribes and pharisees are among the religions of babylon the great, what would be the signifigance of jesus words at matther 23:2,3?

" "2the scribes and the pharisees sit on moses seat, 3so practice and observe whatever they tell youbut not what they do.

Cold Steel

ObjectiveTruth:

What do you feel is Required to “Get Out of Her”?

It meant, in one context, that the Christians of his day were to separate themselves from the Jewish nation, which was under condemnation. For general counsel, it means to withdraw one’s self from the world and its wickedness. There are many things in our society that are perfectly legal, but which have dire moral implications and consequences. We must separate ourselves from the world’s sense of morality and ethics and embrace those that have been given us by God and his prophets.

Would Disassociation/Disfellowshiping be Appropriate?

Appropriate for what? Getting out of a false religion? Not really. If the WTS has no authority from God, then membership is just a figment. It's just a meaningless piece of paper which you can ignore.

If one chose not to Disassociate himself, would it be Wrong to still Attend Meetings with the hope of Turning some to the Bible?

God has no commandments on which churches you can attend or not attend (otherwise, how could anyone discover the truth?). Not attending the church of your choice is a stipulation that only false religions impose. Naturally this would not include cults that engage in ritual human sacrifice, Satanism and the like. But the Lord expects people to search for truth, and you can’t do that by staying away from all religious sects. If your purpose is to attend Kingdom Halls in the hopes of bringing people out, that would be a bit dicey. I wouldn’t want to be responsible for destroying someone’s faith, having them lose their wife and children or turning them to atheism. As strange as it seems, some Jehovah’s Witnesses are actually happy in their faith. I don’t believe for an instant that Jehovah’s Witnesses go to an everlasting Hell because they happen to belong to the wrong church.

When Jesus Speaks of the Scribes & Pharisees do you feel that these could be Compared to the Elders or the GB?

Or any other corrupt body of false priests or religious leaders who have corrupt understandings of the scriptures. It’s a case of the blind leading the blind, and it’s the overarching problem in the entire religious world, of which the Jehovah’s Witnesses Governing Body is only a tiny part. In other words, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society isn’t the creation of God that fell into apostasy; it never was anything other than a false religion. I’ve always wondered if they’ve individually ever doubted their own legitimacy and callings. Or do the words they hear in their minds convince them it’s of the Holy Spirit.

If the Scribes and Pharisees are among the Religions of Babylon the Great, what would be the Significance of Jesus’ Words at Matthew 3:2,3?” 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you—but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice.”

I’m not sure that Jesus viewed them in the context of being one of the false religions of Babylon. In fact, if anything, he was respecting the authority of their office, but also saw the corruption in their hearts. As a result, to be absolutely blameless before the Father, he had to be respectful of the “seat of Moses,” and the authority of the Romans. He couldn’t be a rabble rouser, and everything he did had to be done in obedience to those in authority, both theologically and politically. If it weren’t so, he could not have been guiltless when he was put to death.

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62

Marriage Consummation - emailed question has me stumped

by jwfacts in

i received an email from a jw that got married, but the wife never had sex with him.

they were together for a period of years.

he told the elders, but they said there was nothing that could be done.

Cold Steel

For this type of discussion, one must keep customs, laws of man and laws of God in mind when addressing these issues.

Why was marriage instituted? Because it's not good for man to be alone. Also, the law of God to Adam was to go forth, multiply and replenish the earth. Legality in moral issues means very little since adultery, fornication, homosexuality and oral sex are all legal, just as the most horrible types of abortion is legal. But the moral aspects of each of these have been hotly debated in our society.

Going to the New Testament, one reads the words of Jesus on the matter:

One Bible scholar put it this way:

Emotionally, spiritually, intellectually, financially, and in every other way, the couple is to become one. Even as one part of the body cares for the other body parts (the stomach digests food for the body, the brain directs the body for the good of the whole, the hands work for the sake of the body, etc.), so each partner in the marriage is to care for the other. Each partner is no longer to see money earned as “my” money; but rather as “our” money. Ephesians 5:22-33 and Proverbs 31:10-31 give the application of this “oneness” to the role of the husband and to the wife, respectively.

Physically, they become one flesh, and the result of that one flesh is found in the children that their union produces; these children now possess a special genetic makeup, specific to their union. Even in the sexual aspect of their relationship, a husband and wife are not to consider their bodies as their own but as belonging to their partner (1 Corinthians 7:3-5). Nor are they to focus on their own pleasure but rather the giving of pleasure to their spouse.

Also:

As recorded in Genesis chapter 2, God created Adam first, and then Eve. God Himself brought Eve to Adam. God Himself ordained that they would be joined together in holy matrimony. He said that the two of them would become one flesh. This is a picture of marital intimacy—the act of love that is never to involve anyone else. To “cleave” means “to adhere to, stick to, or join with.” It is a unique joining of two people into one entity. It means we do not quit when things are not going right. It includes talking things out, praying things through, being patient as you trust God to work in both of your hearts, being willing to admit when you are wrong and asking forgiveness, and seeking God's counsel regularly in His Word.

The question now arises, how can a couple achieve all of this when one withholds himself or herself from a spouse? Isn’t it also written, “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord”?

These are arguably not one of the most popular passages in the scriptures, but Paul mentions it twice. But Peter also said, “Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto your elders. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.”

By submitting to the needs of others, we serve others and put their needs above our own. And if we do that for one another, doesn’t it stand to reason that we would do that with our spouses?

No one mentioned why this woman would want no sexual relations, but it could stem from a fear of pregnancy or a perceived stigma caused by overzealous parents and teachers who have convinced her that sex is somehow wrong. Some women aren’t virgins and are afraid they’ll be discovered.

The ancient Israelites were permitted to put away their women because of their weaknesses and inability to live the gospel. When given the opportunity of seeing God for themselves, they refused and told Moses to receive the word of the Lord and they would comply. Today we also have weaknesses, and the situation being discussed is about one spouse who is refusing to obey the word of God nor submit to her husband. And under these conditions, he has every right to put her away. Also, elders are not judges, nor were they intended to be. Their job is to provide spiritual counsel. One of the greatest gifts of God is that of free agency, and by compelling members to submit to untrained elders is, in my view, irresponsible and leads to gross unhappiness.

One final thought. Paul, in Ephesians 5, repeatedly mentions something that is vitally significant. And that’s the church.

Notice that there are seven references in this passage on marriage regarding the church. Now the amazing thing is, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society has never claimed, and has gone so far as to deny, that it is a church! That said, why should the Society’s elders have any authority to revoke someone’s baptism by disfellowshiping them? The Israelites had judges appointed them by Moses, and these judges were called and set apart by Moses because he found he couldn’t handle all the cases himself. The bottom line is that in a situation as mentioned by the OP, counseling should be tried first. After that, the issue is whether couples are living the spirit of the counsel first given to Moses, and then by Jesus Christ and his apostles.

And fer goodness sake, why didn’t the spouse mention her reticence to have sex before her marriage? I have to place some fault on the man, and the couple together, for not discussing things like expectations regarding children and sex in general. Finally, if you've been disciplined by the Society, don't take it too hard. It's not like they're the church of Jesus Christ, right?

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Paralipomenon: More likely, the Elders thought he was trying to play the system and didn't believe him. They are enforcers, even if they believed him, if people thought they could just claim they never had sex and get a free pass on remarriage that would be preferable to the status quo of having an affair to get a divorce.

The ancient law has always been: In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. If both husband and wife testify to something, it isn’t up to the elders to either believe them or disbelieve them. Unless they are witnesses themselves, or have conflicting witnesses willing to testify, they are compelled by the law to take their words. If they are dishonest, then it’s a matter for God to judge. If one or more of the couple are unwilling to submit to each other’s happiness or fulfillment, then in my view it’s justifiable for the couple to split.

In the early church, marriage was considered a holy ordinance, and the Eastern Orthodox considered it a sacrament. In fact, they believe that legal marriages done in other churches or by secular authorities end at death. Marriages done in an Eastern Orthodox church, however, will last forever. They point out that Adam and Eve were married by God before the fall and, therefore, death had not come into the world. Thus, God intended for that marriage to last forever. Because of this, it’s more difficult to obtain a divorce than a civil marriage.

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52

What other religious groups are ...

by EdenOne in

b) teach conditional salvation based primarily on faith in christ?.

c) refuse eternal torment in a literal fiery hell?.

d) refuse the immortality of the soul?.

Cold Steel

I’ve been reading about the Seventh Day Adventists recently, as they have a free Android app that lets one download the books of Ellen G. White and other writings. (There’s also a JW app I’ve yet to check out, but I’ve downloaded it.) The nature of her visions is fascinating and she shares many doctrines with JWs as they relate to the trinity and the state of the dead. There also are some similarities in eschatology, though I find theirs substantially more imaginative than the JWs.

It’s amazing how exclusive these sects are to other religions, and White is emphatic in declaring that those who do not worship on the seventh day (Saturday) will be destroyed at Jesus’ coming. I’ve met many, many people in my life who are devout Christians and who genuinely love the Lord and who view his suffering and death on the cross as redemptive. I’ve also known many Jews who are devout in their religious views, and who are honorable, have virtue and integrity, but who have little or no knowledge of Jesus. But nothing can save them, in the end, because they don’t embrace a rejection of the trinity or who believe that the spirit of man is eternal.

The whole idea behind the actual Armageddon of the Bible isn’t that the Messiah is going to come and destroy the wicked, but that the Messiah is going to come and save his people. The great gentile force is going to come down on the holy city, only to be defeated by the Messiah. But when the remnant of Judah see the marks of the wounds in their Messiah’s hands and feet, the scriptures state that the nation will be converted in a day. Thus, in that day, they will be redeemed.

Keep in mind that this is the last great battle before the coming of the Lord. And while it involves the destruction of Israel’s enemies, its emphasis is on salvation of God’s wayward people. Its major points:

The Lord will not let Israel pollute his holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that “I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.”
The house of Israel shall know that “I am the Lord their God from that day and forward.” This means no more backsliding.
The heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them.
When the Lord has brought Judah again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations; then shall they know that “I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen.” In 1947, the nation of Israel was brought back into existence, and the Jews, since that time, have been returning to the land of their inheritance.
Neither will “I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel.”

This is an astounding prophecy. First Judah, because it rejected the Lord their God, was given over to their enemies and allowed to fall by the sword. Then they were dispersed into all nations throughout the earth and the Lord hid his face from them and allowed them to be scourged. After Hitler and the Nazis had tried to destroy them, the Lord brought them again into the lands he gave their fathers. The gentile nations of the earth would gather against them one more time in the battle of Armageddon, but the Lord would destroy them and, in doing so, would be seen as Israel’s protector and would be glorified in the eyes of the heathen.

It’s almost entirely impossible to misinterpret these verses, but dang if the Jehovah’s Witnesses didn’t manage to do it!

My question then is why, if God’s purpose was to destroy all those who didn’t buy into all the doctrines of Adventism, did he come to save the Jews and to convert the heathen? True, he destroyed the Beast, Antichrist, Gog, whatever you wish to call him, but he had given him plenty of warnings through the various prophets.

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In other words, this event has been prophesied by many prophets. As Joel Richardson writes:

In contrast to the popular Christian position, the Jewish rabbinic view identifies Gog as the final enemy of God’s people. Further, he and his armies are the same invaders described by all the other prophets. In Ezekiel, a Commentary Anthologized from Talmudic, Midrashic and Rabbinic Sources, we are told: “The final war when Gog will actually break into Jerusalem, is described in Zechariah 14. References to the wars of Gog and Magog abound in Scripture, overtly in the prophets … The longest, most detailed, and most specific accounts are contained in the books of Ezekiel, Zechariah, Joel, and Daniel.”[129] While the Jews refer to the final evil dictator as Gog, the New Testament calls him by such titles as the Antichrist (1 John 2:22), the son of destruction (2 Thessalonians 2:3), the lawless one (2 Thessalonians 2:8), the Beast (Revelation 11:7), and other titles. Likewise, in the Talmud, we read:

... “At the end, the very end of days, Gog and Magog and their armies shall go up against Jerusalem, but they shall fall by the hand of the King Messiah.” (Samon H. Levey, The Messiah; An Aramaic Interpretation: The Messianic Exegesis of the Targum (New York: Ktav Publishing House, 1974), 17–18.)

Richardson, Joel. Mideast Beast: The Scriptural Case for an Islamic Antichrist (p. 163). Joel Richardson. Kindle Edition.

The Lord stated that the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath; yet the Seventh Day Adventists believe anyone who keeps not the sabbath is doomed to destruction, even those who love and serve him clean in conscience. The Jehovah's Witnesses believe all members of an apostate Christendom will be destroyed. After all, that's why they labor so much to bring them around. But this exclusivity (the same exclusivity that has the Messiah rescuing the Jews in the last days), I believe, is repugnant to the Lord, who regards us as his children.

I believe the doctrine of the sleeping dead is very weak indeed. In the late 1940s, the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hammadi Christian library were discovered. Neither of these support the soul sleeping concept we should expect to see if it were, in fact, a viable doctrine. Also, Peter said, "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead...." How can one preach to those who are sleeping? So you may want to investigate that one, as well as the interpretations to the eschatological writings above before including it in a list.

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